The use of race in elite college admissions was never about increasing the diversity of lived experiences, it was about being able to maintain a university filled with people from high-status backgrounds while outwardly appearing to be representative of the society they exist in.
It's trivial for them to get the diversity they want by prioritizing applicants from underrepresented school districts and giving a boost to applicants of lesser means, but this would result in them needing to make significant compromises in the prevalence of students from upper class backgrounds.
pxmpxm 669 days ago [-]
One of the justices alluded to just that in the majority opinion - colleges could clearly forego "legacy", major-donor and athletic admissions, but they seem to prefer non-rich asians, whites and indians to carry the downside of the agenda.
theonlybutlet 670 days ago [-]
For university applications, why not strip any potential bias out of applications. An intermediary that removes any potential indicator, name, school, location.
Any historic disadvantage should be addressed at the source. Like if school grades are lower, that needs to be fixed at the school level. Otherwise it only helps the privileged few that are applying to college and not all who have been wronged, it'll be the case whereby the most underprivileged stay the most underprivileged.
meee 670 days ago [-]
I don't have a deep understanding enough to have a strong opinion on this but don't the roles seem reversed? It's my understanding that Asian people are underrepresented at Harvard due to affirmative action. The photos I've seen for this story feature Asian people protesting the decision. Is this a case of people coming together against their own interests to protest a decision they think is unfair? It feels too political for me to get a sense of what is right here.
In the long run, since colleges are still free to consider race though writings, isn't this what you would want to see in a healing society? We understand that the pendulum should swing in the direction of helping the underserved and once that footing is there, the goal is always to be agnostic of race. This seems like a baby step to see if the affirmative action worked. Is there something that has happened since the 60s that indicates this should last forever or that the program was reaching it's goals?
FreshStart 670 days ago [-]
A healing society? This is the only society who embraced the melting pot and got greatly rewarded for this. There are no wounds, compared to the old world stratified layers and Asia's invisible caste systems&racism.
there are working class grievances becoming racism but even that is pretty universal. No wounds but those inflicted by the divide and conquer on all sides.
orf 670 days ago [-]
America doesn’t have any implicit caste system, racism or “wounds”? A huge percentage of the population would disagree with you.
People still fly the confederate flag.
FreshStart 669 days ago [-]
Some parts of the middle east are a living confederacy right now. There are segregation signs in some shops in china (plus enslavement of poor/woman) and invisible segregation by race in south American politics. People learn about history, people try to avoid repetition of that history and the flag is mostly a symbol against the reintroduction of "caste" in the US. Nazi like shit heads are pretty universal and the US is shining beacon for those escaping these circumstances.
"US always evil exceptionalism"is a plague among the authoritarian left.
orf 669 days ago [-]
Yes: bad places exist in the world.
No: the confederate flag is mostly flown by nice well learned history enthusiasts who simply couldn’t bear to see their fellow man of any ethnicity placed in any form of hierarchy or chains, and so display it to show everyone how glad they are that the confederates where defeated.
“US is always number one and everything is just perfect” is a plague among the uneducated right. There is nuance to everything, unfortunately.
prpl 670 days ago [-]
It seems this will end quotas, but it seemed like there would always be workarounds or proxies admissions (especially deep pocketed ones) could use to meet their goals that they were not using.
(I realize quotas were suppose to be illegal too, but obviously there’s some race based formula that these places has implemented)
I would like to point out that any discrimination based on race (and thus affirmative action) is forbidden by law in lots of other countries, for example Germany.
Kranar 670 days ago [-]
This is simply untrue and you are unlikely to find any country that has such absolute policies codified in their law.
The example you give, Germany, has its own form of affirmative action codified under the Allgemeines Gleichbehandlungsgesetz which permits employers to give preferential treatment to ethnic groups subject to structural disadvantages or underrepresentation. Germany uses the term "Positive Action" in their legislation:
It is also called positive discrimination if you translate directly, which I believe is an oxymoron and I believe it should be revised as well for modern times.
NoRelToEmber 670 days ago [-]
> Germany uses the term "Positive Action"
Interesting how they never call it "racial discrimination" when it's something they like. I guess they had to come up with a euphemism to avoid the Pavlovian response they instilled.
jupp0r 670 days ago [-]
Your rebuttal is simply not true.
Article 3 of the German constitution (Grundgesetz):
"No person shall be favoured or disfavoured because of sex, parentage, race, language, homeland and origin, faith or religious or political opinions. No person shall be disfavoured because of disability."
Job ads in Germany often state that disabled applicants will be favored because this is explicitly allowed.
b0sk 670 days ago [-]
I mean, in a vacuum, it makes no sense but in this case, I agree with KBJ's dissent. In a country with a historical baggage like US, something like this is needed.
LorenPechtel 670 days ago [-]
Affirmative action is basically robbing Peter to pay Paul. The beneficiaries weren't discriminated against, the people losing out weren't discriminators.
There is a problem--but it's a matter of why they aren't as qualified. Pretending they are isn't going to fix the actual problem.
bodhi_mind 670 days ago [-]
I understand your perspective, but it's essential to consider the historical context and systemic impact of discriminatory practices such as redlining. While affirmative action aims to address the long-standing inequalities faced by marginalized communities, it's not about "robbing Peter to pay Paul."
Redlining, a discriminatory practice prevalent in the mid-1900s, systematically denied access to housing loans and opportunities to minority communities based on race. As a result, neighborhoods predominantly inhabited by minorities were deprived of investment, economic growth, and wealth accumulation. This created a cycle of limited opportunities and limited access to resources that persists today.
Over time, this has led to a significant wealth gap between racial groups. Affirmative action seeks to address this imbalance by providing opportunities for marginalized individuals to overcome historical disadvantages and achieve upward mobility.
bitcurious 670 days ago [-]
“The proof is in the pudding” if we’re sticking with idioms. Where the evidence of systemic racism is a lack of wealth, discriminate on wealth. Where the evidence is family structure, discriminate on family structure. Address disadvantage by addressing disadvantage, not by a racial proxy.
In programmer terms, racial affirmative action is a very lossy hash of reality, which leaves a lot of room for injustice both in terms of who it helps and who it doesn’t.
LorenPechtel 669 days ago [-]
You're explaining why it came about, not why it's not an evil.
As for redlining--while it certainly existed in the past I noticed something when there was a flap about it a while back. There was a very detailed article in the local newspaper about local "redlining". However, it didn't make sense--why would bankers only discriminate against black neighborhoods with low-down mortgages? If black is relevant why not all mortgages?
How about a simpler explanation that fits the facts? Something stood out to me about their map--the map of the "redlined" zip codes exactly matched an earlier article about appreciation. Suppose the bankers are looking at the chance a house ends up underwater a few years down the road? That gives no inconvenient inconsistencies in their behavior. Yes, it hurt the neighborhood but there's no racism involved, just simple economics.
pfannkuchen 670 days ago [-]
> Redlining
As an aside, I’ve always been confused about the dynamics of redlining. Wouldn’t refusing to give any mortgages for a neighborhood reduce the cost of buying a house there? Is the idea that it was purchased by landlords and everyone was made to rent instead of buying? Lowering housing costs for a group generally doesn’t seem like a bad thing…
sp527 670 days ago [-]
Plenty of other identity groups have suffered heavy discrimination across US history (Irish, Italians, Japanese, Jews, to name a few). They don't seem to require a policy like affirmative action to ensure they obtain a fair proportion of seats at top universities. Plenty of highly impoverished immigrants arrive in the US and have children that academically outperform the kids of very privileged parents.
What's needed is not affirmative action but a more honest appraisal about what the real obstacles are for Black and Hispanic students. And perhaps we'll discover that those obstacles cannot in fact be legislated out of existence.
prottog 670 days ago [-]
> a more honest appraisal about what the real obstacles are for Black and Hispanic students
Different cultural and ethnic groups value different things. Virtually nobody who clamors for more black and Hispanic representation in Harvard's undergrad class, for example, also clamors for more Asian representation in the NFL, even though that disparity is much, much greater, with only a single-digit number of current players.
jupp0r 670 days ago [-]
The assumption that Germany has no historical baggage is pretty bold.
raxxorraxor 669 days ago [-]
Yes, but Germany currently also discriminates against formerly discriminated groups.
glimshe 670 days ago [-]
A great step against racism and for respecting our constitution, while maintaining safeguards to revert situations where actual anti-minority racism took place.
rvz 670 days ago [-]
Good. Affirmative action policies in university admissions was nonsensical to begin with.
LorenPechtel 670 days ago [-]
It made sense originally to break the cultural pattern of discrimination. It's done that, while there are still racists out there they don't have the power to keep people down that they used to.
Yet we continue to use it to solve a problem that isn't caused by discrimination and thus can't be cured by efforts against discrimination.
oluwie 670 days ago [-]
It was there and implemented for a specific reason. That reason wasn't nonsensical to begin with.
last_responder 670 days ago [-]
The person you replied to did not say if the reason was nonsensical or if the policy implemented to address the reason was nonsense.
"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."
jfengel 670 days ago [-]
[flagged]
Jackpillar 670 days ago [-]
This is stupid
bequanna 670 days ago [-]
Agreed. Affirmative action was a bad idea.
We should never be giving special advantages or holding someone back based on their race.
endisneigh 670 days ago [-]
I think everyone would agree that blacks shouldn’t have been enslaved and white people not conferred special advantages during the Jim Crow era, yes.
The question is such things did happen. How will you resolve the disparity, if at all? Clearly a very inflammatory topic.
okdood64 670 days ago [-]
> How will you resolve the disparity, if at all?
Look for other signals of this disparity aside from race; this isn't a new concept.
endisneigh 670 days ago [-]
Why would you look for other signals when race in this example was the signal used for discrimination?
Suppose you use income. There are more poor white people than black people period. You could certainly help them instead of any black person. That may be more optimal depending on what your goal is, but if the goal was to combats racial inequality clearly that’s not useful.
Larrikin 669 days ago [-]
Were slavery, Jim Crow, etc based on other signals aside from race?
It's trivial for them to get the diversity they want by prioritizing applicants from underrepresented school districts and giving a boost to applicants of lesser means, but this would result in them needing to make significant compromises in the prevalence of students from upper class backgrounds.
Any historic disadvantage should be addressed at the source. Like if school grades are lower, that needs to be fixed at the school level. Otherwise it only helps the privileged few that are applying to college and not all who have been wronged, it'll be the case whereby the most underprivileged stay the most underprivileged.
People still fly the confederate flag.
"US always evil exceptionalism"is a plague among the authoritarian left.
No: the confederate flag is mostly flown by nice well learned history enthusiasts who simply couldn’t bear to see their fellow man of any ethnicity placed in any form of hierarchy or chains, and so display it to show everyone how glad they are that the confederates where defeated.
“US is always number one and everything is just perfect” is a plague among the uneducated right. There is nuance to everything, unfortunately.
(I realize quotas were suppose to be illegal too, but obviously there’s some race based formula that these places has implemented)
Quotas have been illegal since the 1970s.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
The example you give, Germany, has its own form of affirmative action codified under the Allgemeines Gleichbehandlungsgesetz which permits employers to give preferential treatment to ethnic groups subject to structural disadvantages or underrepresentation. Germany uses the term "Positive Action" in their legislation:
http://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/docs/ELECTRONIC/77201/93329/F6...
Interesting how they never call it "racial discrimination" when it's something they like. I guess they had to come up with a euphemism to avoid the Pavlovian response they instilled.
Article 3 of the German constitution (Grundgesetz):
"No person shall be favoured or disfavoured because of sex, parentage, race, language, homeland and origin, faith or religious or political opinions. No person shall be disfavoured because of disability."
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.h...
Job ads in Germany often state that disabled applicants will be favored because this is explicitly allowed.
There is a problem--but it's a matter of why they aren't as qualified. Pretending they are isn't going to fix the actual problem.
Redlining, a discriminatory practice prevalent in the mid-1900s, systematically denied access to housing loans and opportunities to minority communities based on race. As a result, neighborhoods predominantly inhabited by minorities were deprived of investment, economic growth, and wealth accumulation. This created a cycle of limited opportunities and limited access to resources that persists today.
Over time, this has led to a significant wealth gap between racial groups. Affirmative action seeks to address this imbalance by providing opportunities for marginalized individuals to overcome historical disadvantages and achieve upward mobility.
In programmer terms, racial affirmative action is a very lossy hash of reality, which leaves a lot of room for injustice both in terms of who it helps and who it doesn’t.
As for redlining--while it certainly existed in the past I noticed something when there was a flap about it a while back. There was a very detailed article in the local newspaper about local "redlining". However, it didn't make sense--why would bankers only discriminate against black neighborhoods with low-down mortgages? If black is relevant why not all mortgages?
How about a simpler explanation that fits the facts? Something stood out to me about their map--the map of the "redlined" zip codes exactly matched an earlier article about appreciation. Suppose the bankers are looking at the chance a house ends up underwater a few years down the road? That gives no inconvenient inconsistencies in their behavior. Yes, it hurt the neighborhood but there's no racism involved, just simple economics.
As an aside, I’ve always been confused about the dynamics of redlining. Wouldn’t refusing to give any mortgages for a neighborhood reduce the cost of buying a house there? Is the idea that it was purchased by landlords and everyone was made to rent instead of buying? Lowering housing costs for a group generally doesn’t seem like a bad thing…
What's needed is not affirmative action but a more honest appraisal about what the real obstacles are for Black and Hispanic students. And perhaps we'll discover that those obstacles cannot in fact be legislated out of existence.
Different cultural and ethnic groups value different things. Virtually nobody who clamors for more black and Hispanic representation in Harvard's undergrad class, for example, also clamors for more Asian representation in the NFL, even though that disparity is much, much greater, with only a single-digit number of current players.
Yet we continue to use it to solve a problem that isn't caused by discrimination and thus can't be cured by efforts against discrimination.
We should never be giving special advantages or holding someone back based on their race.
The question is such things did happen. How will you resolve the disparity, if at all? Clearly a very inflammatory topic.
Look for other signals of this disparity aside from race; this isn't a new concept.
Suppose you use income. There are more poor white people than black people period. You could certainly help them instead of any black person. That may be more optimal depending on what your goal is, but if the goal was to combats racial inequality clearly that’s not useful.